By E. Spencer Kyte (espencerkyte@mmaratings.net)
We’re closing in on UFC 100 – and the release of The UFC 100 – which means talks of who will be the next entrant into the UFC Hall of Fame are heating up again.
Evan Tanner’s name constantly comes up and I keep wondering why.
Don’t get me wrong – I loved Evan Tanner as a fighter and appreciate the trials and tribulations he went through outside the ring battling alcoholism. That being said, Evan Tanner is not a Hall of Famer.
I’m just trying to come at this logically, leaving all emotions at the door. Hypothetically speaking, if Evan Tanner were alive today, would a single soul be talking about him becoming the next member of the UFC Hall of Fame?
Of course they wouldn’t. Tanner was a damn tough fighter who marched to the beat of his own drum, but he wasn’t a dominating force at any point in his career and his one UFC title reign lasted four months minus a day, as Rich Franklin claimed the Middleweight belt in Tanner’s first defense.
By no means am I trying to kick dirt on the grave of a fallen warrior – as I said, I completely respect what Tanner did inside the cage and outside the cage – but there are numerous people far more worthy of a place in the Hall of Fame than Evan Tanner… and no, as sad as his loss is as well, “Mask” isn’t one of them either, unless you’re inducting the entire Tapout Crew as a whole.
I look at it this way: Helio Gracie did far more for the sport of Mixed Martial Arts than both Charles Lewis and Evan Tanner combined, as the founder of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and patriarch of the legendary Gracie family. Oh, his son also started the original UFC. Kind of important, I think.
But many people don’t think that way. I haven’t read one article or list of candidates that mentions Helio Gracie, but everyone seems to be pulling for Mask and Tanner, with many considering them locks for induction.
They look back nostalgically at the career of Evan Tanner and romanticize it, using his brief championship stint and 17 career UFC fights as qualifications. Of course, Tim Sylvia is a two-time heavyweight champion with a number of fights in the UFC as well, but I don’t hear anyone calling for “The Maine-iac” to be recognized…
The same goes for Mask. With all due respect, if he was still with us, would anyone be promoting him for the Hall of Fame? Probably not and while I know it’s the answer to the question is moot because Charles Lewis was taken from us too soon, death shouldn’t be the main criteria for induction.
If we’re paying tribute to pioneers and people who showed incredible support and love for the sport, than do so accordingly, by acknowledging legends like Helio Gracie and not just the fallen whose imprint is freshest in our minds.
* * * * * * * * * *
Like everyone else who calls themselves a fan of Mixed Martial Arts, I too am saddened by the loss of these great contributors to our sport.
Without question, they did more than I could ever possibly do for Mixed Martial Arts and their presence can never be replaced.
My thoughts and prayers continue to go out to the families and friends of Evan Tanner and Charles “Mask” Lewis, as they do for Helio Gracie and his family.
Originally posted at Keyboard Kimura as “This One Might Get Me in Trouble”
I didn't get much beyond your first couple paragraphs before having to respond. You say "coming at this logically" when you're talking about a promotion's own HOF. This isn't some separate entity from the sport, and logic is NOT the only facet of it. Emotion is, without a doubt, a large part of it. So I question your basic assumption that "coming at it logically" is somehow the best way to do it. Tanner was a much-loved (if short reigning) champ, a unique character among a cast of weirdos, and something of an innovator in mixing MMA.
He wasn't the greatest of all time. But he was without a doubt a vibrant streak in the history of the UFC, and should be treated as such. His win over David Terrell was one of the most invigorating victories in my early experience with the UFC, and cemented my love of the sport.
Saying logic is somehow a better way to determine someone's HOF-worthiness is foolish. Logic is ONE aspect of determining someone's HOF-worthiness, along with emotion and "intangibles". Whether Tanner is worthy in that light, I don't tell anyone how to judge. I say he is, but that's me.
While replying it occurred to me a bigger question is raised here…is the HOF worthy of these individuals? It seems to have been made for Dana White to urge fighters to retire. That question may need its own article.
As for the potential induction of Charles "Mask" Lewis, well, you're completely off-base there. As a private HOF it's entirely appropriate for Zuffa/UFC to induct someone who's helped make them that much money. And when Punkass and Scrape retire or otherwise, they should be in there too.
Garth,
I meant that I have to come at Evan Tanner's Hall of Fame credentials logically, not the UFC or anyone else.
While all the things you say about Tanner are true, the emotional response elicited because he's passed away doesn't factor into my judging him for the Hall of Fame. People die – that doesn't make them greater than they were when they were living.
As for Mask, yes, he helped them make a ton of money, but so has Joe Rogan and I wouldn't advocate him going into the Hall either.
This is and was a very reciprocal relationship that benefited both sides. That being said, I certainly give more credit and respect to the Tapout Crew for being there from the beginning and clearly caring about the sport more so than the 498 "MMA Apparel" companies that have sprung up as of late.
Interesting to me is how you have no thoughts on Heloi Gracie and that is kind of the main thing I wanted to get at with this piece?
Everyone is so quick to nominate and extol the virtues of Tanner and Mask going into the Hall, but a TRUE LEGEND like Helio Gracie isn't as well known or as fresh and relevant in the minds of many MMA fans and receives little to no acknowledgment…
Huge difference between Helio Gracie and those guys: Gracie never fought in the UFC. he was part of the development, no doubt. But he was in effect counter-Zuffa. This is a Zuffa Hall of Fame.
You CANNOT come at a Zuffa-owned hall of fame and not include them as a consideration. If you're doing a thought experiment, that's different. Logically in a performance-based-only HOF Tanner shouldn't get in.
I didn't add any comments on Helio Gracie because of the comments above, and because I think he should go in. But if that was the main point of your article, you should have spent more talking about him, and less dissing others. the majority of the piece is about people other than Helio Gracie. Additionally, having Evan Tanner in the UFC's HOF will in no way take away from Helio Gracie being "enshrined".
As far as Mask is concerned, Zuffa has every right to enshrine who they wish, much the same way baseball enshrines broadcasters and writers and others who "contribute to the game".
In the same vein, is it worth it to even be considered for a private company's HOF? What's the credibility? It's like being in the "Pepsi Hall of Fame" or "Microsoft Hall of Fame", or getting an honorary degree. It doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means.
"Huge difference between Helio Gracie and those guys: Gracie never fought in the UFC. he was part of the development, no doubt." – Change Helio Gracie to Charles "Mask" Lewis…
The thesis of this piece is that Tanner isn't a Hall of Famer to me and we glorify his career because he is dead. Helio Gracie is used as the counterweight to the Evan Tanner supporters, as Gracie had far more of an impact in the sport than Tanner.
You're right that this hall of fame means zip in the grand scheme of things, though I would like to be in the Pepsi Hall of Fame, just to say I am.
Zuffa can do whatever they want and at no point have I tried to say otherwise.
I'm just saying for me, Evan Tanner and Mask don't merit consideration for the UFC Hall of Fame, especially not over some of the other deserving candidates out there.
I didn't get much beyond the title before thinking "what is Garth going to say" (seriously).
I didn't get much beyond your first couple paragraphs before thinking "the UFC Hall of Fame is a financially motivated gimmick. Who gives s–t?"
Anyway, except for any [financial] rewards given to inductees, Hall of Fames are about as relevant as pound for pound rankings, even if they were determined by an independent organization.
I've often pondered the idea of a pioneer's of the sport list, which I think should be limited to individuals whose contribution was related to direct competition, excluding Helio and Mask. I wouldn't put Tanner on that list either.
Similar to many rankings criticism, I think what's missing from this piece is mention of what fighters would make better nominees.
Garth – so THAT'S what you look like? I've always wondered!
I think a Pioneer List in the HoF is a perfect solution to non-fighters. My list for this category includes: Helio Gracie, Charles "Mask" Lewis, Joe Rogan and the like. No freakin' ring girls.
Tim Silvia, Spence? Really? I don't think he should be a candidate. No way he can compare him to Evan Tanner. Evan had skills.
Now, here's the beginning of my list of people who should NOT be eligible for the HoF: Michael Jackson (he's already in the Music HoF, right?)…
I think the Tim Sylvia reference is meant to say that he accomplished more in the UFC than Evan Tanner and point out the emotional factor.
I've seen a few "most influential MMA people lists that considered factors beyond fighting, which I would suggest is different that what I would think of as "pioneers of MMA" which should be for fighters.
the Tim Sylvia reference was definitely a rhetorical device.
I guess my main objection is if it's so important to have Helio Gracie in the Zuffa-designated Hall of Fame, write a post about that. I don't see how denigrating two dead men does anything for Helio's case. If it even matters. It's a rather petty post dressed up in "logical" thinking.
If you'd thought about it for a minute, you'd clearly realize the only people who will be affected are going to be people that care about Mask and Evan, since the two guys aren't around to defend themselves. So summing up: antagonistic post about dead guys to promote other dead guy = troublesome at best.
One last niggling point: did Helio ever fight an MMA match? Real question, not snide or rhetorical at all, I don't know.
For the record, I think any MMA Hall of Fame without Helio Gracie in it is stupidity of the highest order.
I'm not denigrating anyone for F$@# sake!
I didn't say "piss on their graves if they get in and Helio doesn't" or give anything but my heartfelt remorse for their losses.
What I did say is that EVAN TANNER IS NOT A HALL OF FAMER IN MY OPINION… nor is Mask and I think Helio Gracie would be a better selection.
How is my opinion antagonizing the deceased? F*&^% me!!!
You want more better selections?
Tito Ortiz, Chuck Liddell, Matt Hughes, Don Frye, Rich Franklin, Oleg Taktarov, Frank Shamrock, Dana White… I could go for hours…
gettin' pettier and pettier. nice job taking criticism, kid.
Well I certainly didn't think you were denigrating anyone. As a matter of fact, I think you were pretty explicitly not doing that.
Maybe the better selections were obvious, but I just hate hearing how people don't belong without seeing the alternatives.
Once again, I don't put any merit in Zuffa's HoF, but if I did, I would not include Helio, because he did not compete in the UFC, and I would not include Evan, for all the valid reasons you mentioned.
Some perspective:
http://blog.mmaratings.net/2008/09/in-memory-of-evan-tanner.html
Garth:
I'll take all the criticism you can throw my way, but when you want to say something as ridiculous as I'm denigrating Evan Tanner and Mask than I am going to take offense.
I, like Eric, think I did a pretty damn fine job of clearly stating that this is (1) my opinion and (2) in no means meant as disrespect or demeaning the achievements and contributions of each.
If you want to debate, let's debate, but don't put words in my mouth or say I'm doing things that I'm clearly not.
Having a Pioneer list of MMA-firsts for fighters included in an MMA HoF is a given. I also think a Pioneer list in an MMA HoF for people who contributed to the sport, but who were not fighters, would be pertinent.
I made the comment about Sylvia because even though it was rhetorical, I don't think he contributed more to the sport of MMA than Evan…so I was being, well, sarcastic.
I don't think Spencer was denigrating anyone at all – I really didn't take his post that way. I think he was just trying to make his point.
Personally, I don't think you can create a HoF without being emotional. Just like with other sports, actors, singers and other notable public figures, we often give out awards or HoF mentions posthumously – and it's usually not just because they excelled at craft/sport or whatever, but more so because they excelled AND we wanted to recognize them due to their perhaps untimely death. That speaks emotion to me.
Some perspective:
http://blog.mmaratings.net/2008/09/in-memory-of-evan-tanner.html