By Katrina Belcher (KatrinaBelcher@mmaratings.net)
There’s been a lot of discussion about the referee stoppage in the Koscheck vs. Paulo Thiago fight during UFC 95. Seems to be pretty equal as far as I can tell: half believe it was a good call, the other half think it was early and Kos got robbed.
“As for next time, my message to all the ref’s would be to, please let the fight go until I’m put out to sleep.” Josh Koscheck
I like Josh Koscheck. I think he’s actually a pretty nice guy who’s got a huge personality and a lot of self-confidence. The combination can sometimes rub people the wrong way. So I wanted him to win, and my initial reaction was that the ref’s stoppage of this fight was definitely premature. Until I started doing some research.
The thing is, realistically, unless you were in the ring with these fighters at that moment, there’s no way you can judge if the stoppage was right or wrong. Could Kos have recovered? Was he really ever even out? We’ll never know. But what we do know is that according to the Nevada Athletic Commission (NAC) and most AC’s out there who sanction MMA, the first duty of a referee in any MMA bout is the safety of the fighters – regardless what the fans or even the fighters themselves want. Period.
Witness boxing legend Mohammad Ali who today suffers from Parkinson’s Syndrome. Would he have this condition if he’d been a CPA and never fought in the ring? After numerous tests at the Mayo Clinic and other medical centers of note, Ali’s brain stem was shown to be significantly damaged. His attending physicians, in a statement released at Muhammad Ali’s behest, stated that they believed Ali’s brain damage to be boxing-induced. While we will never know for sure, in Muhammad Ali’s case, his Parkinson’s Syndrome was likely caused as the result of repeated blows to the head which irreversibly damaged his brain stem.
We all know that head injuries can occur during a competition. Anything from a mild concussion to a catastrophic cerebral hemorrhage (bleeding inside the brain) is possible. “Competitors, as well as those who care for them, must be aware of the acute symptoms that may present following these injuries in order to avoid further damage. In addition, proper recognition and treatment of head injury can prevent potentially devastating, long-term complications.” (NAC)
The NAC says that “serious head injuries include epidural hematomas, subdural hematomas, subarachnoid hemorrhages, and diffuse axonal (brain cell) injuries. These injuries all require immediate, advanced medical treatment in a hospital setting.” While it’s true these injuries can occur, they usually don’t – pretty much because of the Unified Rules of Conduct for this particular combat sport, and the fact the most fights consist of standup fighting, boxing, kickboxing, judo, BJJ and wrestling combined. That and unlike boxing, where the fighters are constantly hammered to the head for 10-15 rounds with no one but the bell to save them, the fighters can tap out at any time. Subsequently, in many cases, the most damage to the head a fighter will suffer is a concussion. No biggy, right?
We all pretty much know what a concussion is, but in medical terms, according to MedicineNet.com, a concussion is: “A traumatic injury to tissues of the body such as the brain as a result of a violent blow, shaking, or spinning.” It’s called TBI: traumatic brain injury. TBI can cause a concussion. In fact, according to the American Academy of Neurology, a concussion is a “trauma-induced alteration in mental status that may or may not involve loss of consciousness.” Note the “may or may NOT involve loss of consciousness” part.
To their credit, the NAC has apparently conducted some major research into concussions: “Concussion results in one or more of the following symptoms: light headedness, vertigo (sensation of spinning that causes loss of balance), a brief loss of consciousness, loss of memory, cognitive dysfunction, blurred vision, tinnitus (ringing in the ears), difficulty concentrating, headache, vomiting, nausea, photophobia (sensitivity to light), or dizziness. A fighter may receive a blow to the head, face, neck, or body causing forces to be transmitted to the head without an awareness of a blackout. The event may be quite rapid with a short-lived loss of neurologic function that resolves spontaneously.”
Some of the acute signs and symptoms of concussions include: confusion, disorientation, vacant stare or befuddled facial expression, obvious incoordination (inability to walk in a straight line), emotionality out of proportion to circumstances, irritability, and a whole host of physical conditions such as headache, fatigue, nausea/vomiting, blurry vision and more. Granted, we don’t know if Kos suffered from any of those physical symptoms, but when you look at the video, and the infamous video after the fight in his locker room, it’s obvious that he was suffering from confusion, disorientation, vacant stare or befuddled facial expression, emotionality out of proportion to circumstances, and irritability. Okay – well I guess his emotionality was not exactly out of proportion to the circumstances. I’d probably be irritable if I thought I’d just been on the bad end of an early ref stoppage, but the other symptoms still ring true. Look at his face – he’s confused.
No doubt there’s a risk for long-term complications, and according to the NAC, “the risk is increased by the number of traumatic events that occur within a short time duration. If a fighter experiences only one concussion, the potential for long term effects is minimal. However, multiple concussions can lead to complications such as Postconcussion Syndrome, Second Impact Syndrome, and Post-Traumatic Seizures.”
Conceivably, when Koscheck got hit with Paulo Thiago’s uppercut-hook-combo and went to the mat, he could very well have been concussed at that time. Regardless if Kos, the fans, or anyone else could tell if there was a blackout or not, there’s a good chance he was out. And you just don’t take chances with people’s lives – especially if that’s what you’re paid to do: protect the fighters in your ring.
What ring officials know and fans may not: the effects of the Second Impact syndrome. Per the NAC: “If the athlete is still symptomatic, the brain has not fully recovered from the first traumatic event. The brain cells are highly vulnerable to a second traumatic event. Potential diffuse brain swelling can result after a second concussion. The second blow could be very minor, not directly contacting the head such as a blow to the chest; however, the sudden changes in head position with the acceleration/deceleration movements are strong enough to create brain swelling to the already weakened tissue. This complication would require urgent treatment and may even result in death.“
Did the ref stop this fight too early? I don’t think so. He was doing his job. Protecting the fighter. And while the theory of “intelligent defense” exists, it shouldn’t be at the expense of the fighters. There’s no doubt Josh Koscheck is a smart guy. Is he smart enough to leave his life, his livelihood and his brain in the hands of the person officiating future fights — and trust that they are there to keep him safe? Only time will tell.
While you certainly point out plenty of valid facts, I ultimately still disagree with the stoppage.
Yes, the ref was doing his job. Yes he was looking out for the fighter’s safety. Yes there is a chance that a second blow could have caused long term damage.
But this is combat sports and MMA is dangerous. We saw Josh’s eyes roll back, but he was always defending himself. I think its very possible that Koscheck could have recovered and been back in the fight. As long as that’s the case, I think he should be afforded that opportunity.
“Yes, the ref was doing his job. Yes he was looking out for the fighter’s safety. “
That’s where you needed to stop. Since it’s a combat sport, and the ref has to make a judgment right there, there will always be “premature” stoppages. There will also be fighters who get tagged when the ref can’t see. it’s just how it works.
I don’t think the probability of refs making bad calls eliminates the appropriateness of having a dialogue about what calls we disagree with and what criteria we, as fans, think should be used.
I don’t think I said anywhere we shouldn’t have a dialogue. Regardless of whether that happens or not, referees, good ones, will end up having to make split second decisions, and will sometimes get them wrong.
Garth, That’s how I’m interpretting “That’s where you needed to stop”
I’m not trying to hang the ref. Katrina is saying she thinks the stoppage was a good one. I’m disagreeing.
that is a goofy interpretation. I made a point about your post. I did not tell you you have to stop discussing it.
Now, is the discussion going on the criteria of stoppages or the “goodness” of this ref’s stoppage in the Koscheck fight? because criteria of stoppages is a good thing to discuss, but the goodness of the kos stoppage is completely in the eye of the beholder. I’m pissed that Thiago (like we need another Thiago, one more thing Kos deserves disdain for) didn’t pounce, and instead showboated like a jackoff. We wouldn’t be having this merry-go-round discussion if he’d just polished him off like he’s supposed to.
In my view the ref saw him get punched in the jaw and buckle. Just like Karo, Houston Alexander, Chuck, Riggs, etc etc etc. Those are just off the top of my head. Flash KO’s happen. It’s luck if the ref decided to let it keep going or not.
NOW then, if it’s a discussion on the criteria, well, rock on. I think it’s up to the ref. It’s too chaotic a situation to say with certainty you can cover every circumstance. But that’s my opinion.
I think the two things are intrinsically connected. I draw some distinctions in those flash KOs. Alexander and Chuck went limp. Karo did not. At least according to my recollection. But what is relevant and connects the two topics is that I think this should be a part of the criteria. If the fighter goes limp, or stiff, then you know they can’t defend themselves. Alternatively if they simply stop defending themselves, by turtling up, then that also deserves a stoppage. Koscheck never went limp, or stiff, and was defending himself, and I wanted to see him take more punishment.
agreed on wanting to see Kos punished more.
Here’s Karo getting KO’d
http://i27.tinypic.com/5y5m60.gif
He looked limper than Kos did. Both guys got their “strings pulled” as it were, they went limp and dropped.
Check out how Chuck comes to while being whalloped in the dome
http://www.fightreport.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/quinton-jackson_chuck-liddell.gif
See – and that’s my point. Fans just want blood…they don’t care about the fighter. It’s the ref’s job to care about the fighter. So no matter what you wanted, and even if you don’t agree, that doesn’t make this stoppage wrong. The whole point is that the ref stopped it because he felt it was important to protect the fighter because ultimately, that is his job.
In fact, I think you may have missed this part – that trauma-induced alteration in mental status MAY or MAY NOT involve loss of consciousness; and that “A fighter may receive a blow to the head, face, neck, or body causing forces to be transmitted to the head without an awareness of a blackout”.
Eric’s assuming that just because Kos started looking around, started to sit up, and seemed to be ready to defend himself, that he was never knocked out or hadn’t rec’d a TBI, or if he had, it was no big deal, ’cause it comes with the territory. But it doesn’t – that’s what makes MMA different than boxing. Like it or not, that’s what makes today’s MMA different than NHB past.
You can’t know if he had a TBI. Truth is, neither can the ref. But since his job was to NOT take chances w/KOS’s life, and since he was there looking directly up front and close at Kos, then he would know better than any of us if it was time to stop the fight. And he made the decision in favor of Kos, as he should have.
Additionally, anyone who’s spent any time training in combat- or fighting-type martial arts systems knows about muscle memory. You get knocked down or out, but your limbs and head still keep doing what they’ve been trained to do. That’s what Kos was doing, IMO. And I’m not really even sure Thiago was showboating – it almost seems to me that he knew Kos was out, and knew it wasn’t necessary to go in for the kill. If even the opponent stops and doesn’t go in for the finish, what’s that tell you?
I wouldn’t say “I don’t care about the fighter” but I do think, yes, “it comes with the territory”
And the reason that I feel justified in saying the stoppage is wrong is because its not like I’m going against a consistently implemented method of stopping fights. Because there is no consistency, I can say “hey that doesn’t seem right … in fact it seems wrong”
P.S. Like Garth, I’m claiming to not be a jerk. 😉
see, that’s what i’m trying to say: opinion on the Kos stoppage is fine.
But a lot of Kat is talking about is in re fighter stoppage criteria, from the referee’s view, not the fan’s or the fighters. I think we’ve gotten that line muddied a bit.
Well, if I heard anyone ever say Eric was a jerk, they’d have to contend with Katrina “The Hurricane’s” wrath.
But yeah – everyone’s entitled to their opinion. I’m just saying no matter what a person thinks or would have liked to see, the ref did his job.
Like I said – I actually like Josh. I totally would’ve preferred to see the fight continue, ’cause I think there’s a good chance he could’ve gotten up and kicked Thiago’s booty. You know me – I thought the Penn/Sherk fight was awesome, ’cause it was non-stop action and they went toe-to-toe. (I know, I know Eric…you don’t agree! LOL.) So yeah – I wish it had gone on.
But I also respect the ref’s duties and the fact that he did what he felt, given his knowledge of the situation and his agenda, was right.
And I thought this was a dead issue and that no one would bother commenting…!
See – and that's my point. Fans just want blood…they don't care about the fighter. It's the ref's job to care about the fighter. So no matter what you wanted, and even if you don't agree, that doesn't make this stoppage wrong. The whole point is that the ref stopped it because he felt it was important to protect the fighter because ultimately, that is his job.
In fact, I think you may have missed this part – that trauma-induced alteration in mental status MAY or MAY NOT involve loss of consciousness; and that "A fighter may receive a blow to the head, face, neck, or body causing forces to be transmitted to the head without an awareness of a blackout".
Eric's assuming that just because Kos started looking around, started to sit up, and seemed to be ready to defend himself, that he was never knocked out or hadn't rec'd a TBI, or if he had, it was no big deal, 'cause it comes with the territory. But it doesn't – that's what makes MMA different than boxing. Like it or not, that's what makes today's MMA different than NHB past.
You can't know if he had a TBI. Truth is, neither can the ref. But since his job was to NOT take chances w/KOS's life, and since he was there looking directly up front and close at Kos, then he would know better than any of us if it was time to stop the fight. And he made the decision in favor of Kos, as he should have.
Additionally, anyone who's spent any time training in combat- or fighting-type martial arts systems knows about muscle memory. You get knocked down or out, but your limbs and head still keep doing what they've been trained to do. That's what Kos was doing, IMO. And I'm not really even sure Thiago was showboating – it almost seems to me that he knew Kos was out, and knew it wasn't necessary to go in for the kill. If even the opponent stops and doesn't go in for the finish, what's that tell you?
"Yes, the ref was doing his job. Yes he was looking out for the fighter's safety. "
That's where you needed to stop. Since it's a combat sport, and the ref has to make a judgment right there, there will always be "premature" stoppages. There will also be fighters who get tagged when the ref can't see. it's just how it works.
Well, if I heard anyone ever say Eric was a jerk, they'd have to contend with Katrina "The Hurricane's" wrath.
But yeah – everyone's entitled to their opinion. I'm just saying no matter what a person thinks or would have liked to see, the ref did his job.
Like I said – I actually like Josh. I totally would've preferred to see the fight continue, 'cause I think there's a good chance he could've gotten up and kicked Thiago's booty. You know me – I thought the Penn/Sherk fight was awesome, 'cause it was non-stop action and they went toe-to-toe. (I know, I know Eric…you don't agree! LOL.) So yeah – I wish it had gone on.
But I also respect the ref's duties and the fact that he did what he felt, given his knowledge of the situation and his agenda, was right.
And I thought this was a dead issue and that no one would bother commenting…!